Always fast respawn?

[Stele007]

When I first started playing TF2 on Voogru's, I though the fast respawn was kind of a cool idea. Whenever I died, it was nice to get back into the game real fast. As I learned the game, though, it got pretty frustrating on practically every map. The lengthier respawn times for defense are supposed to counter their ability to get into the front lines quicker (whenever they're on their last point, which is usually only when the spawn times get to be pretty long). I remember leaving the server whenever dustbowl came, because unless the teams were EXTREMELY unbalanced, defense won every round. Which brings me to another point... It almost encourages team stacking, because the attacking team (or winning team in well/granary/fastlane) needs to be so much better than the defending team to win.

CTF is the worst in that you'll kill someone on the way down to the intelligence, then they'll instantly respawn and come looking for you. If you're lucky you still need to kill them again before getting out of the base with the intel. If you have to spend any time in the base (say, to destroy a sentry), then it's more likely that you'll have to kill them three times total in their own base. Of course, this gets multiplied the more people that spot you.

I know some of you might say, "Just play on another server". Actually, that's what I've been doing. I like the Voogru community (been here since Natural Selection was popular), though, so I'd like to play on the servers regularly without getting so frustrated over the fast respawn. Of course, if I'm the only one that wants this here, then it'd be a stupid idea to change it. But with the way it breaks the game, I can't be the only one that thinks this, right? Is it possible to have one server with normal respawn times?

[wtf lah*]

Originally Posted by Stele007

When I first started playing TF2 on Voogru's, I though the fast respawn was kind of a cool idea. Whenever I died, it was nice to get back into the game real fast. As I learned the game, though, it got pretty frustrating on practically every map. The lengthier respawn times for defense are supposed to counter their ability to get into the front lines quicker (whenever they're on their last point, which is usually only when the spawn times get to be pretty long). I remember leaving the server whenever dustbowl came, because unless the teams were EXTREMELY unbalanced, defense won every round. Which brings me to another point... It almost encourages team stacking, because the attacking team (or winning team in well/granary/fastlane) needs to be so much better than the defending team to win.

CTF is the worst in that you'll kill someone on the way down to the intelligence, then they'll instantly respawn and come looking for you. If you're lucky you still need to kill them again before getting out of the base with the intel. If you have to spend any time in the base (say, to destroy a sentry), then it's more likely that you'll have to kill them three times total in their own base. Of course, this gets multiplied the more people that spot you.

I know some of you might say, "Just play on another server". Actually, that's what I've been doing. I like the Voogru community (been here since Natural Selection was popular), though, so I'd like to play on the servers regularly without getting so frustrated over the fast respawn. Of course, if I'm the only one that wants this here, then it'd be a stupid idea to change it. But with the way it breaks the game, I can't be the only one that thinks this, right? Is it possible to have one server with normal respawn times?

The 10 second respawn on maps like dustbowl, goldrush, and badwater seem to be enough to give the attacking team the edge. I believe however maps like hydro and all linear CP maps also need a 10 second respawn because turtling is quite easy and it just becomes a stalemate most of the time.

I see no problems currently with dustbowl and badwater at 10 seconds respawn even if it's a bit difficult. Goldrush on the other hand is a pain in the ass even with 10.

Just like you I use to love fast respawn and I still do, until of course games become stalemates constantly. Stock respawn timers are NOT needed, but a 10 second or so timer might work out.

[pipski]

I think we've done the respawn timer debate to death already. The concession for a short defender respawn timer on attack/defend and PL maps has worked out pretty well for the most part and has added balance back to those maps. Most other maps including CTF maps are purely symmetrical so the respawn is not really an issue as long as its the same for both sides. Dont fix what aint broke IMHO. Instant respawn for the win!

[Stele007]

Sorry, I didn't see any recent topics about this, so I didn't think it had been debated much.

I do think it makes it much more difficult even for symmetrical maps, though. In fact, I tried all the servers before making this thread just to make sure that they all had fast respawn and while playing ctf_2fort trying to nab the enemy intel, I kept having to go through an engineer who had set up things at spawn. I could usually kill him, but then as I went down to get the intel I'd run into him again right after getting the intel. At that point it's actually worse for me to kill him again, because with the fast respawn he would just pop up in front of me yet again as I'd try to get out of the base. It was even worse in that usually there'd be a pyro down there as well, and I would have to kill him twice as well to get out. It just seems too favorable to the defense and requires too much from the attackers.

With other symmetrical maps like granary, well, and fastlane you can get to almost winning (down to the last cap) but then they constantly stream out of spawn right next to the point, so it requires more teamwork than usual to take it. Admittedly, it's not as bad for granary since it takes a bit longer to walk out to the point.

Anyway, if this has been done to death already, I won't push it any further than this.

[TheGuy]

I agree 100% with you stele. I'd prefer normal respawns as well. Like I always say. In fact here's a recent post of mine you might have missed in the arena thread.

Respawn times is a core mechanic of Team Fortress 2. Each map is balanced, with little tweaks to the spawn timers of each team until it's just right. Then you take that timer and throw it out the window. That's fast respawn. It kills balance on every map. Even with some spawn time added to the defending team it's still not balanced. Both teams need the spawn time.

If you've ever played a competitive game of TF2 you'd know the goal of the game is to kill the other team and capture a point. It's not to kill some, camp their spawn since it's so fast and then cap the point. Fast respawn removes the reward for killing the other team. Let's say you kill 2 SG's but a soldier finishes you off. By the time you get back there, the engies have already spawned and probably have the guns back to level 2 by then. On maps where there's one attacking and one defending, the travel time is part of BLU's respawn time so their time is lower but still not removed.

[Captain Justice]

This leads us to Voog Severs 4 and 5:

The Fast-Respawn one with Bonus Time
and The 5v5 Arena one.

Because the latter would be legit.

[Mr Poopy Pants]

Scaleable respawn times with each death.

[GrooTheWanderer]

Originally Posted by TheGuy

I agree 100% with you stele. I'd prefer normal respawns as well. Like I always say. In fact here's a recent post of mine you might have missed in the arena thread.

Respawn times is a core mechanic of Team Fortress 2. Each map is balanced, with little tweaks to the spawn timers of each team until it's just right. Then you take that timer and throw it out the window. That's fast respawn. It kills balance on every map. Even with some spawn time added to the defending team it's still not balanced. Both teams need the spawn time.

If you've ever played a competitive game of TF2 you'd know the goal of the game is to kill the other team and capture a point. It's not to kill some, camp their spawn since it's so fast and then cap the point. Fast respawn removes the reward for killing the other team. Let's say you kill 2 SG's but a soldier finishes you off. By the time you get back there, the engies have already spawned and probably have the guns back to level 2 by then. On maps where there's one attacking and one defending, the travel time is part of BLU's respawn time so their time is lower but still not removed.

Ditto... I think I said something similar in an earlier post (in the other thread somewhere). Plus, when people play medic others will be more likely to look out for them. It really changes the dynamic of the game when you have to wait 30 to 45 seconds for your medic to respawn - or any team member for that matter.

If voog ever bring more servers online, I would like to see one with at least a 30 second timer.

[SoBe Green]

I'm very torn when it comes to respawn timers. I'm a Pyro player and as such when spawn timers are on it puts me very heavily reliant on my team due to the fact that I'm going to be dead far more often than they are. Now 9/10 times this is no problem but if the teams are stacked against me I'm not enjoying myself. There is no gratification in axing 5 guys in a row only to have the other 10 still alive cap a point while my team is building 10 level one sentry guns and failing. I'd love a server with slower respawn but not the default time. 30 seconds to respawn is far too long.

Arena however I love. I'd love even more to remove random crits but keep weapons meant to crit (axstinguisher, kritzkreig, backburner, KGB). I love arena because one guy (most of the time) can't win it for all. It takes pure teamwork to win arena. I'd love an arena server with small map time (15 minutes) that way we get a lot of variation. Arena's only downfall is that since the maps are so small it can get a little stale past the 20 minute mark.

[TheGuy]

ok 30 seconds is nuts. I'm talking normal respawn times..

[voogru]

Most non-symetrical attack/defend maps, if enough people request a respawn timer, I'll put one. But I typically like keeping the respawn times short on symetrical maps, but as the community grows we can just add more servers with different settings.

I might make one of the current 32 player servers more traditional (with normal respawns or just slightly reduced respawn times) and let people who prefer that, play on there.

Probably in the next 2-3 months I will be adding more servers, I usually wait for the promotions before upgrading, I intend to run Left-4-Dead servers when that comes out if they support the same kind of server environment that TF2 does.

[Drayth]

If you do, do it to Politically Incorrect, leave Crazy House as the "traditional" voogru settings of 32 quick respawn tfc-style objective-based fragfests ;p My personal opinion is that if I wanted to sit around dead watching others instead of -playing- I'd go back to Counter-strike ;p

[pink -v-]

Originally Posted by pipski

Dont fix what aint broke IMHO. Instant respawn for the win!

This is fallacious logic for 2 reasons: 1) The game was designed with respawn timers. 2) If people are complaining about instant spawning then it IS broken, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining.

There may be a way to appease both crowds. That would be progressive respawn timers, i.e. Incremental respawning per death. Something like 1 or 2 sec per death capped at 15-16 seconds and (if possible) cleared on a control point cap. That should help a bit with stalemates without having blanket respawn timers for everyone.

[Drayth]

Pink:
1) TF2 sorta was...but TRUE Team Fortress had no respawn timers; half the maps we have were designed around the original, true TFs with no respawn timers and 32player maximums; tf2 didn't support 32man at first but Voogru knew better and had the 30man server for a long time before they made it allowed ;p
2) People complain about anything and everything. Just remember the golden rule: Complainers are the vocal minority; the majority of people are content and quietly enjoying the game as is and easily outnumber the whiners. The fact that Voog's servers stay full 24/7 is testament to this rule :P(The fact that the servers that broke Valve's 24-max, default spawn time rules were far more popular is too; people don't like spawn timers. This isn't effing CS or Death Match, true TF was designed around insta-spawns for challenge)

That said, I see both sides win just as often as they lose on every single map we play(except the guaranteed stalemate maps like badlands); it boils down to who's on each team and how seriously they're playing at the time ;p The spawn timers make little difference, slow respawn just guarantees a loss for the slow spawners, but insta respawn doesn't guarantee an impenetrable defense either.

[SoBe Green]

Well while we are at it. Steel needs a respawn timer for defense.

And Drayth, none of the maps were designed with fast respawn in mind because they are TF2 maps. If you want another clone of TF there is a source based mod out there that is doing just that. You can't decide what "true tf" is because there has only been two of them. TFC was TF upgraded. The same guys that made TF made TF2. I think they know what they wanted TF to be.