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Thread: Alltalk

  1. #1
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    Post Alltalk

    Howdy folks,

    Let me preface this by mentioning that I enjoy all-talk, and I'm not posting this thread out of any great deal of frustration or because I believe having all-talk on (seemingly) all the time is doing any harm to the server. On the contrary, I believe it's been a valuable asset in helping to repopulate the server over the last few months, which is an observation that is no doubt shared by the majority of regulars here.

    However, if I had to guess, I'd say that the all-talk voting feature -- as well as the inevitable, subsequent "Yes" result that accompanies it -- appears to take place, by my observations, in around 90-95% of the games I've played in over the last several months on the Crazy House server. Let's go ahead and get this out of the way: in that, obviously, that statistic lends itself its data solely as a result of the relentless, unabated consortium that the CH populace has now manifested itself into – perhaps more commonly identified as, "The will of the people."

    "Yeah, well, so what?" one might contest. "If the server is reflecting an atmosphere that is seemingly in accordance with the desires of the majority of players at any given time, what's the problem with that?"

    I feel the need to exercise some humility here, in mentioning that I do recognize that the majority of folks on Voogru, for whatever their respective reasons, simply seem to enjoy having all-talk on all the time. I may not agree with the idea, but I do respect that it is a popular choice to support never-ending all-talk. However, what about the minority? I may be outnumbered, but I know I'm also not completely alone on this: I can think of more than a handful of people that would also really enjoy playing some old-fashioned, team-based TF2 on their favorite pub server every now and then, while being able to exercise the ability to be strategically candid on the microphone. I wouldn't be addressing this issue, especially at such length, if I didn't think it was something that I alone have felt some frustration over.

    I realize the seemingly illogical suggestion that I may appear to be leaning towards here: that we should somehow ignore the fact that voting is a great way for players to interactively dictate/enhance their respective experiences while on the CH. Why, one might argue that there is nothing more "democratic" and "fair" to the server population than to have the ability to vote and decide on options such as all-talk.

    I'll be candid in my opinion: I believe that democracy is not always the best solution when implementing policy, especially when the ability to be democratic is allowed and subsequently exercised in excess. ("Excess," I realize, is an observation relative to the observer, and while I personally believe there is too much use of the all-talk voting command, others may not feel as though it is used in over-abundance.) I mention this only to point out what I believe to be a major, underlying root of the problem. Others may not see it as a problem at all, and I respect that. I just hope I have been thorough enough insofar that others would perhaps see why I view it as an issue.

    With consideration to that which I have outlined above, the purpose of this thread is to generate discussion towards possible ideas that might help to appease players on Voogru such as myself, that have a hankering to engage in a bit more classic team rivalry. In regards to competitiveness, I don't want to be misunderstood here; the server is still certainly competitive in many ways with all talk on, albeit, in my opinion, in a rather broad and unstable sense.

    One might suggest a very basic approach, in simply raising the percentage overall needed to enable all-talk, following a vote. I'm not certain of the current percentage, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, but when I inquired to an admin a few weeks ago, I was told it was a 51% majority.

    In conclusion, I am keenly aware that this thread may not be met with much enthusiasm; however, I feel as though jump-starting this discussion is in the best interests of ALL Voogruians. I’d like to think that I can possibly speak on behalf of others who also share in my disposition, and I hope that if anyone else feels as though the CH could use less talk and more rock that they'll take a moment to chime in. Inasmuch, any and all comments and criticisms are welcomed and encouraged, if only to perhaps establish a more identifiable consensus among those with an opinion on the matter.

    Respectfully submitted,
    FreAk

  2. #2
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    All-talk would be more fun if a select few wouldn't hog the mic so much on some nights. Other than that I don't have a problem with all-talk.

  3. #3
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    Well, here I thought I would be the one to have to make a thread about this. I have had mixed feelings about all-talk, on one hand it perhaps sparked some life into the server, hell starting up the server basically requires it. But once it fills up, no sort of team work is taking place. The server goes from somewhat competitive to, talking over the mic while mindlessly doing tf2 things. Some maps is essential for voice communication for team work, such as some playloads/Capture points (coordinating pushes/shoring up defenses) but on others perhaps some CTF/KOTH where it would be alright to mindlessly play and shoot the shit. It is hard for me to gauge how much I dislike all-talk itself. Back in the day we could still talk with most of our friends, and still play some damn good tf2. Just you had a chance not to be able to talk to everyone at once.

    What is really grinding my gears lately is certain people who I guess just seem to have an open mic, they just go on and on. Now in a non all talk server this is only a problem for me 50% of the time depending on what team. But with all talk its the same people talking to each other taking up 80% of the voice coms. It just never ends, its constant and not related to tf2. But I am sure you are thinking, well if I do not like their chatting I can just mute them, problem solved. Sure it works but I never know if they actually had anything important to say about the current game, and I will never know if I am being spoken over since I do not hear them. It is just that with all talk on, no matter who is on what team certain people will constantly be talking, and I use the term talking lightly. Just last night some people got into it, and all I could think was, man they are on two different teams, if all talk was not on there would not be this ear bleeding mic spam from two people bickering.

    This is just my thoughts, I love this server and I have been around for a while. I hate to this of CH as being nothing short of a DB server but on the wrong game mode.

    But since this thread is about discussion, lets talk about options.

    Have all-talk on certain map types?

    Perhaps have all-talk on certain days like an event? (Fridays/weekends)

    Have it limited to a certain player count for starting up the server?

    A different voting system?

    A mumble/teamspeak/vent server? All the chatting you want with out all-talk

    Or is this something bigger, times change, new players join, perhaps this is what the kids want, and the old guard is out of touch, and is not as important anymore. The phrase: we want to appeal to a wider audience comes to mind.


    So uh, 80 views and 2 replies, how are you guys feeling about this. Kind of an tricky subject but we should have just 3 view points, feel free to reply.
    Last edited by willl; 05-02-2014 at 04:51 AM.

  4. #4
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    Count me as a "here, here!" on this issue. I was waiting to weigh in until I had a decent perspective on the issue and felt literate enough to voice it, so here goes:

    I am among a majority of players that usually votes for alltalk these days. I like it, and maybe I like it because I'm a talkative jackass. Maybe I like it because it makes it easier to sway the crowd into voting for custom maps. So when a guy like blue_tetris says "It's time to respect the minority of players who come for a serious game every now and again", maybe it'll bear some extra weight? Who knows. Alltalk simply cannot always be on. I'll go a step further: Whatever thing that you like the most on the server cannot always be on! The core concept of community can be summed up thusly: Learn to fucking share.

    Learn to share the server. Learn to share the fun. Learn you can't always get your way. With that tenet in mind, I had to learn that I can't always have alltalk. I'm part of a community. I need to grow up and realize that I can't always have X, for any value of X. By the end of this seminar, you too will realize that--kick and scream all you like!--you can't always have X.


    THE PROBLEMS

    The most basic problem with the system is that a 70% or 80% majority will get their way 100% of the time, when it comes to a vote. So, yes, the majority wants alltalk. However, a significant minority--at least 30%--wants teamtalk. Heck, maybe they just want teamtalk every now and again. Maybe on certain maps. The problem is that, as the voting system stands, teamtalk will never pass.

    Even a minority should get their way a minority of the time. That's how a community works. If the minority constitutes 40% of the players, that's 40% of the players who should get their way 40% of the time. Right? I realize I can't always have my way. I can't always have my map--that's why we have rtv and nominations. I can't always hog the mic with my warm blue_tetris voice--so I try to take turns (shouldn't we all?). No one should have the audacity to think they need to hog the mic, always play their favorite maps, or always get alltalk. It does not promote a fun server. This all leads back to the "learn to fucking share" ethic that any community should have.

    Hey everyone on the server, take a look around and see what some of the other players desire. A significant but (obviously) silent minority wants to have teamtalk. Let's let them have that sometimes. Jesus. When we realize that we can't always have our way, we start to respect the other players' desires and we can do a wider variety of fun matches. Competitive games sometimes, laid-back games other times. PL sometimes, CP other times. Open-mic night sometimes, respectful goddamn turn-taking on the microphone other times. Everything in moderation, right? Every round on Crazy House cannot be the same, because that ultimately means some contingent of players is never getting to have any fun. That contingent of players is speaking up here in this thread. Right now, that's happening. It proves the premise that these players exist and are an important part of the community. I'm not necessarily in that contingent--and I shouldn't have to be just to realize that those players deserve to have fun too. Because I've learned to fucking share.

    Worse yet is this:

    When alltalk is hand-selected at the behest of pipski or another admin, even the illusion of community has been thrown out the window. In the cases where noisy populism doesn't get its way, someone can still hijack the server with a moody authoritarian "sv_alltalk 1" command and forgo all the pretenses of democracy. That is shit. It is the pinnacle of shit mountain. I don't care if that person is Sobe, or EGGNOG, or blue_tetris, or FryHyde, or cold, or willl, or deer, or even the loveable Ford. If you take any one person's choice and preclude it from a communal decision, you're not behaving as part of a community. And like it or not, we're all part of a community.

    And a community has to fucking share.

    If you justify your action with the notion that "it's what everyone wants anyway", why not test your goddamn hypothesis by asking what everyone wants, democratically. A refusal to submit to a democratic system on the server is an admission that your decisions are shitty.

    Next up, lemme stress what willl and cold also said: One of the problems with alltalk is the mic-hogging. A small contingent of people just use alltalk to broaden their "listening audience" from an already-impressive 16 to and unnecessarily-bloated 32. If we didn't have players that constantly leave their mics open, alltalk would be less of an issue. But the fact is, we do have those players. There are people who would be having much more fun if they could talk every once in a while. So how do we help those players have fun? We let them speak. We give them an opportunity to join in the conversation. We don't talk over them. We--sound off with me, doggz--learn to fucking share.

    And lastly: Voice chat is not just a "privilege" in TF2. It's a gameplay feature. You need to talk to your team to win sometimes. Communication can tip the scales in favor of an otherwise-boned team. BLU needs to coordinate ubers. RED needs to discuss sneaky teles. Being able to talk to your team is practical, functional, and enhances gameplay. Alltalk spoils that. Don't get me wrong: Alltalk is great fun and it has its place! I prefer it much of the time. Notwithstanding, switching to alltalk removes an important part of TF2's strategy; it diminishes the fun that these players would otherwise have.



    THE SOLUTIONS

    So this is all well and good. But how do we fucking share when the system is designed to give us our way, if we shout it loudly enough? Well, willl and Freak had some awesome ideas, and I'd like to repeat the ones they mentioned that I agree with:

    Require a supermajority to activate alltalk. A requirement of 70% or so would do wonders in occasionally letting the players who want at least one teamtalk game a night get what they came for.

    Prevent alltalk for certain player counts. Alltalk is beautiful when it's 6v6, and it works okay when it's 9v9 too. But when it's 12 to 16 per team, it becomes a shouting match of team-based call-outs (spy!, uber!) or a mess of conflicting conversations. The signal-to-noise ratio approaches zero, during 16v16 alltalk games. The only solution is when everyone agrees to shut up and listen to one guy talk the whole time. And that's hardly a solution.

    Run a VoiP server for non-teamtalk stuff. That's just plain brilliant. Of course, NerdGuy runs a Mumble server, and people who should use it simply don't. They'd rather broadcast to everyone mid-game.

    Limit the alltalk to certain times. Once every few maps? Only on certain days? It'd be a little tricky, server-side, to do those things. But having admins and community members who agree when and how teamtalk maps should take place? That's a fine start.

    Learn to fucking share.


    Post script:

    willl, I don't think the oldsters are out-of-touch. There have always been players who want teamtalk, and players who want alltalk. I know some new players who have told me they wished the server would play a few "regular games".
    Last edited by blue_tetris; 05-02-2014 at 09:59 AM.

  5. #5
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    700 or so views later this thread still has three replys. What am I gather from that, do people not care about all-talk is this not a big deal to them? Are they alright with it, are they afraid to voice their opinions about it? or do they just do not care about it at all. Also where is the people running the servers opinions on it? Nothing has been said.

    These past few weeks it has been on 85% of the time. No teamwork, just dicking about talking, while mindlessly playing. No teamwork, just grinding it out while listening to everyone talk. Eventually someone wins and the map switches, rinse and repeat. I see randoms throwing the vote up, I see semi regulars throwing it up, I see the die hard chatters throwing it up to vote. It all ends the same, vote passes and the server continues as normal as a glorified dodge ball chat. People come to chat, while they play tf2. Not here to play but only to listen to a few people talk while everyone else tries to play.

    I know what you must be thinking, but willl we are still playing tf2 why get your panties in a bunch over something so trivial.
    It is frustrating to me to see what our server is being reduced to. This used to be a semi competitive server where we came to, to play tf2 with friends, not lets sit here and just talk constantly and grind out a map. No point in trying to use any teamwork over the mic, its going to get drowned out and the other team can hear everything.

    But willl the server is thriving under all-talk, its good for business, people want it, it is what the server wants or it would not get voted in all the time.

    Fine then let's admit it, the masses want it let us have it 24/7, it is apparently what everyone wants, No one else has spoken about it. It is why people come to the server. Who cares what some old members think, they do not make up the majority anymore. This whole thread is a farce at the moment.

  6. #6
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    I support the idea of having team-talk for more games then tends to be the case currently. It's one of the reasons I enjoy going to visit other servers sometimes, because I can get more of the team-talk, strategic, semi-competitive games that Crazy House used to have more of. Now, I also come to Crazy House for the social interaction. But I am perfectly happy socializing with 16 of my CH buddies at a time, while I try to whoop the other team. I also think it's important to sometimes give players a break from having to listen to every other player on the server for every round. I do like to have all-talk occasionally, certainly when the server is just starting to fill and also sometimes at the end of the night when things tend to get a bit more relaxed. But I do wish that there were more opportunities for a bit more competitive team-talk play.
    (I will add that over the last few weeks, players will occasionally vote in some rounds with team-talk, more than happened in the past.)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by =X=Bina View Post
    (I will add that over the last few weeks, players will occasionally vote in some rounds with team-talk, more than happened in the past.)
    Occasionally? Bina, these people do it just about every round within 60 seconds of joining the server and then go on to ramble about whatever. It is obnoxious. I like playing TF2 with all-talk turned on late at night. It's late. It's chaotic. People are letting loose. However, during the early evening I like to chum it up with just my team and play the actual game.

    Recommended solutions:
    (however the command is spelled I will refer to it as "vote_alltalk")

    * vote_alltalk should not be available for the first 5 minutes after a map loads.
    * One person may not use vote_alltalk more than once per 120 minutes. This will reduce the same person spamming the same command over and over until the vote passes/fails. It will also not allow them to be the first person to invoke the vote at the start of every map.
    * vote_alltalk cannot be invoked more than once per 10 minutes.
    * vote_alltalk must achieve over 65% "yes" to pass or else it will default to OFF (PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS)
    * Voogru will mail out icepacks to people who flagrantly abuse vote_alltalk so that they can cool off their genitals. It's not up to us to figure out why they have such hard-ons for turning on all-talk.

  8. #8
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    Hey Cold, I think you misunderstood me. I said that players have started to occasionally now vote in team-talk, rather than all-talk, when a vote goes up. Or it doesn't get put up as a vote at all. A few weeks ago it really was all-talk all the time, and I also found it a bit aggravating. But at least occasionally now the vote will swing the other way, to disable all-talk. That's what I was trying to say.

    I personally like the idea of a 65% threshold for any vote that would enable all-talk.

    Cheers,
    Bina

  9. #9
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    I beg your pardon, Bina. I thought you were saying they were just recently voting for all-talk in the server.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks.

  10. #10
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    I'm in full support of the alltalk voting feature. And I'm more in line with what Cold said. Late at night its great to have on and its even better when you are doing melee only rounds playing with only a few people (jump starting the server). But more often than not lately I jump on to play and almost every map the vote doesn't even occur an admin just turns it on. Pipski is probably one of the worst violators of talking too much (I know I'm not too far behind him) but one thing I'll give him is turning alltalk off during sudden death. Sometimes you almost look forward to SD in those cases because finally after enduring 20+ minutes of chaos the entire team is talking to each other and working together to win.

    One of the biggest problems with the alltalk vote is it isn't apparent if the person is wanting to turn it on or off. For example if techno turns alltalk on as soon as the map loads and someone votes he might cancel the vote thinking they didn't know he already turned it on. But what if that person was wanting to turn it off? Most players are generally going to accept whatever they think the majority wants. Having a vote that said "Turn alltalk off?" is likely going to generate a stronger decision than "Alltalk On/Off?" or whatever it is the current vote system says.

    There is a delay in using votealltalk but only if the vote fails. But the delay is only a personal delay and any person in the server can immediately start a new vote. This is a problem.

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