WarHammer Online

[Sivias]

Well, the 'Tank' archetype is not a 'WoW' type of tank, but more of the DAoC's tank.
If you never played it, PvP encounters usually happened like this: 2 groups collide, the tanks go after the casters, the casters attempt to immobilize the melee DPS/tanks/healers, and the Melee DPS were to kill healers.
Because the tank class consists of high defense and high hit points, it isn't effective to go after them, especially if they've got healers, but if the tanks aren't immobilized, the casters can't cast effectively.
It's a very nice balance of class systems and skills. If you don't have good communication and skills, you will lose the fight. If you don't have effective classes, but you have the skills, your chances of winning will diminish.
WAR is similar in this aspect, a major difference though is in DAoC, casters would stop casting completely if they moved or were hit, in WAR, this is not the case, so fights end up a lot more chaotic and require a higher level of skill to asses situations.
So, if your entire experience of MMOs is WOW, you really need to clean your slate of how MMOs *should* work.
WoW is an RPG plugged into the internet without a storyline.

[Evilpeяsoи]

My mmo history consists hugely of WoW and FFXI with some of everything else scattered in. I cant really think of any others though that I played enough to have any real "experience" in. I had never played DaoC because as soon as i witness the graphics, etc. i wanted to throw up. But although there are obviously a million other things that could come into play in fighting, what you described in the sort of DaoC-ish type fighting style doesn't sound too bad. I dont know how the general population went about in those games so I cant say anything for certain. That style of fighting seems fun but aside from what you said and you would have to shed more light on this since i didnt get into beta () is how much fighting is based on gear (in WAR). I'm not saying it is and i dont think it is but just hypothetically, if WAR was based on gear as much as WoW was, the class setup and even communication wouldnt hold much weight against highly superior gear.

THe other thing i was thinking of was the fact that although that would be fun, i dont know if thats how most PvP is done because personally i think the organized PvP would kinda get old after a while. I like ambushing ppl and causing chaos . (If i was ever going to play WAR i was going to be one of the chaos classes, no relation to my previous statement but they're badass)

And as a side note i'd like to mention that thinking about the clip with my quote from world of roguecraft has had me cracking up to the point of pain. i dont remember which episode it was in but everyone should go find it and download it for the sole reason of that 20 second clip.

[Sivias]

I'd like to say that the DAoC scenario i gave you isn't the end all be all of PvP fights. There are also Keep fights and relic raids. The PvP inside the PvE dungeon of Darkness falls was always fun as hell. Usually what happened in my scenario i gave is one team loses, calls their friends, and the winning side then loses, and they call their friends etc untill a huge fight in emain mancha broke out at boarder gates. At which point the defending team would run back to the keep and try and hold it.
But there were so many other factors to be worried about as you're attacking the keep. What if a group of the third realm were to roll up on you while you were sieging the keep? Then you'd be in a heap of trouble.
In WAR, most of the PvP fights i've taken part in have been large scale stand offs. The melee inch back and fourth waiting for a good moment to charge in while the casters step in, cast a big bolt, and step back. Until someone just charges in and it's a big fight to the finish.
As for the Gear. Yes, there is gear. And yes, it does have a little effect to your overall character's abilities. But in reality, it's pretty negligible, at least from what i've noticed. The battles have been so numbers based that one guy with super awesome shoulder pads had no counterbalance over the other side. And even then, the stats you get from gear is minimal as well, so gear stacking is likely to be for the min/maxers. Of course, all this is subject to change, but i doubt the gear is going to take immediate precedent over gameplay. It's just not Mythics style. They tried it with DAoC. It was called Trials of Atlantis and it sucked balls, which was, in my opinion, the reason the game eventually failed.
They wont make that mistake again, i hope.

[rayder]

Originally Posted by Sivias

As for the Gear. Yes, there is gear. And yes, it does have a little effect to your overall character's abilities. But in reality, it's pretty negligible, at least from what i've noticed. The battles have been so numbers based that one guy with super awesome shoulder pads had no counterbalance over the other side.

Number games are stupid. What's the small-scale/ambushing stuff like?

[Sivias]

Not sure to be honest, I'm not a fan of stealth and rogues and ambushes so I avoid them. I have been wandering and gotten jumped by a group before. That sucks. But, for the most part, i like to participate in the large scale stuff.
Sorry.
Of course, the way they've been Beta testing us is in phases. *test this zone at this level* so the concentration of players is much higher than in final release. I'm sure you'll get plenty of your much desired ambushing.

*edit* yeah? well... you're stupid!

[rayder]

As more people get involved in a fight the less individual skill is needed in order to win said fight. It's kind of like gear trumping skill in 1v1 fights, just because one side can muster more forces of lesser skilled people doesn't mean it should win against a smaller group of more skilled players.

Also, ambushing doesn't mean using stealth it just means attacking people where they don't expect to be attacked. In my experience smaller battles tend to be far more fun because you actually have a chance to win based on how skilled you are at the game. Large battles tend to just turn out to be large gank fests with a bunch of people killing one person and moving on.

[Sivias]

Okay...


It's a good thing this game isn't based on individuals then, cause that would be a disappointment - and exactly like WoW.

He who carries the biggest stick wins the fight for his team?
I remember I was in AV one time and there was a large fight happening and a warrior running around with Thunderfury and a pocket healer. He wiped out our entire side. Yeah - that makes sense.

No, this game is about individuals working together as a team effort. Which is why it's called WAR, not fight club.

Saying a large number battle has no basis on individual skill is ignorant. A skilled individual who can choose the right targets, assist his team, and understand when to attack is a lot more effective then a person who mindlessly runs in and out with the mob, attacking the nearest target.

Group PvP warfare brings in a lot more tactical scenarios rather than who can push the right buttons in the right order.

Your idea of "individual skill" is just that. In a one on one fight, skill is the person who understands the mechanics of his and his opponents class and that's about it.

In large scale battles, a lot more takes place. The very geometry comes into play. Choke points, walls, line of sight, flanking, as well as key obstacles and capture points.

Our opinion of skill differs widely.

Originally Posted by rayder

Large battles tend to just turn out to be large gank fests with a bunch of people killing one person and moving on.

This doesn't even makes sense, and sounds more like a group of people ambushing a lone player and moving on (sounds familiar).

Originally Posted by rayder

...it just means attacking people where they don't expect to be attacked.

If you have 20 people vs 20 people, why would one side kill one person and then leave? It also doesn't make sense in the world of the game. Most fights take place at capture points. In order to capture the strategic point, you have to kill the other team. Especially if that capture point is a keep.

[Mr Poopy Pants]

Originally Posted by Sivias

In large scale battles, a lot more takes place. The very geometry comes into play. Choke points, walls, line of sight, flanking, as well as key obstacles and capture points.

Something that WoW lacked for the Horde in AV. Saw this and I have my fingers crossed for good pvp in WAR.

[Sivias]

Well, the difference in war is the geometry actually has a place. In WoW, they were choke points to the ultimate goal, and there was no other real options. In WAR, there are choke points, but it wouldn't take long to form a band of players and go on a flanking run around the large mound, you just have to hope that the other side isn't doing the same thing. And if they are, the lines get drawn even further, and makes for some great game play.

[Evilpeяsoи]

Originally Posted by Mr Poopy Pants

Something that WoW lacked for the Horde in AV. Saw this and I have my fingers crossed for good pvp in WAR.

lolololololol true story.

ANYWAY, theres wayyy too much to respond to so im gonna play it like this.
SIVIAS, 90% of what you've been saying in your last 3 points has relieved me very much especially your point on that gear has very little effect.

As for rayder.....you fail lol.
Number games basically mean the game is balanced. If 5 people can wipe out 20 (i.e. sivias's extremely accurate scenario of a warrior in AV.....oh the good ol days....not) then the game is unbalanced and in the case of the TF way too gear based/overpowered.

I agree with you when you say the more people in a fight the less skill that is needed, but only to a certain extent. But with 1v1 fights i definitly believe that skill is the largest factor.

Most games are now a days but cant be too sure so i'm hoping this is released for mac so i can play while im in class

[Mr Poopy Pants]

Well, if they have designed it properly, you might see fights like out of 300, which would rock. ^^

[Sivias]

Yeah. Except instead of a seaside pass, you have a keep. A smaller skilled group defending a keep can easily hold off a larger PUG trying to take it. At least in DAoC it worked this way. I haven't had a lot of keep encounters in my Beta Testing.

First time there weren't any defenders, and the second time we couldn't take the keep, although i don't know the size of the defending force.

[Evilpeяsoи]

I just wanna say i hate all of you who got into beta testing......and i wanna play


side note: 300 owns

[Balemur]

Originally Posted by Evilpeяsoи

I just wanna say i hate all of you who got into beta testing......and i wanna play


side note: 300 owns

Just got my beta invite yesterday so downloading the torrent now and testing it in a bit. =P

[Sivias]

I stole Pipski's name to use as a Goblin Shaman. It just felt too perfect. Sorry pip