WarHammer Online

[Mr Poopy Pants]

Originally Posted by Sivias

Very similar to any other MMO. You gain experience, and you advance in levels. The nice thing about WAR is you get experience from participating in RvR. So, the more people you kill, and objectives you take, the more xp you get.

Wow, nice.

[Sivias]

If anyone hasn't heard yet, Mythic has made the decision to cut 4 of the capital cities (Dwarf/Orc and Elf cities) as well as 4 classes (Choppa, Hammerer, Blackguard, and Knight of the Blazing Sun) from the initial release.
Their reasoning is because of unfun and non great class dynamics and worry of spread out, and incomplete content for the capitals.

Mark Jacobs announces major features cut from Warhammer Online - Massively

From a Beta tester's point of view I'm torn.

As for the Cities, i'm not really bothered. If it's anything like DAoC, everyone just ended up fighting in one zone anyway, turning the other zones into unused areas. (I.E. Darnassus of WoW)
Focusing the RvR and City raiding to only 2 capitals will be fun.

As for the Classes, I'm concerned and disappointed. I can understand why they did it, but I'm worried about the Dark Guard and Knight of the Blazing sun classes. These were core tank classes.

They are planning on adding the other cities as later content, and will continue to work on the classes, hoping to add them in later.

I for one am enjoying the beta, especially this recent Guild Beta Phase, and will likely play the game when released (sounds like they are aiming for this fall, and judging by this cut of content, i doubt they'll delay).

[Evilpeяsoи]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say fuck them. What looks like the projected end result of this game is completely different then the initial thought of the game, way before beta testing or even most of the programming. I originally made this thread because the idea of an mmorpg being based completely around pvp seemed like a VERY nice change, especially after playing FFXI for the past couple months. The original thought had been based on an idea where the word "tank" would not even be relevant and would instead be considered a defense-heavy class. This is starting to look to me like its just going to be another WoW except based on the warhammer storyline rather then warcraft (wow they both even start with war, how entertaining...-_-). I wish i could have beta tested and i'm hoping i'm proved wrong but it just seems like this is going to be another mmorpg where PvE is a necessity and PvP becomes unbalanced.

Even so, overall theres no chance im playing since it was originally projected for a release date of over a year ago and i'm going to college so fat chance i'll be playing any rpg .

[Sivias]

Not sure what you're complaints are. Their recent cuts have nothing to do with the gameplay. The core game is still there. All the leveling through PvP is still there. The endgame zones where the cities would be are still there. They just don't have those classes in. It's working fine in beta, very balanced, so i'm sure it's not gonna be drastically different in the end game.

[Evilpeяsoи]

Well it has just seemed like lately, everything i hear about WHO seems to be slowly moving more and more towards more PvE......which i hate......

To be honest I kinda wanted there to be NO PvE, basically a game with little or no AI controlled mobs (if you even wanna call them AI controlled) and have the entire game based on PvP exclusively. Maybe its just the pure sickness i'm getting from FFXI (almost no pvp) thats making me want this lol.

[rayder]

Originally Posted by Evilpeяsoи

Well it has just seemed like lately, everything i hear about WHO seems to be slowly moving more and more towards more PvE......which i hate......

To be honest I kinda wanted there to be NO PvE, basically a game with little or no AI controlled mobs (if you even wanna call them AI controlled) and have the entire game based on PvP exclusively. Maybe its just the pure sickness i'm getting from FFXI (almost no pvp) thats making me want this lol.

Pure PvP is just as bad as pure PvE. First off, video games are a business and in order for a company to make money they need to sell their game. In terms of an MMO people need to not only buy the game but continue to play it. The more people that play it the longer it will last and the more effort will be spent keeping people playing it because MMOs bring in a lot of money from monthly fees. An MMO needs something for all types of people: this means PvP and PvE, as well as some form of economy that people can manipulate. Having a bunch of things that will attract different people is how an MMO stays alive.

With some of the business aspects out of the way, have you actually thought on how an MMO with no PvE would play? The amount of fun you have would be completely relevant to the amount of people you were fighting with. Playing at different times of the day would completely change how the game was played (which could be fun, but depending on where you are in the world and how fast it is to get to other places it could be devastatingly boring). There's also the skill factor. It's not fun at all to get absolutely destroyed every time you try and fight another person. Look at TF2. Stacked teams where one team works together and is skilled and the other team doesn't and isn't is simply not fun at all for the non-stacked team. If your only way of leveling up in the game was to kill other people and said other people kicked your ass day in and day out your character would never get better while theirs would making it even harder to win.

Think of PlanetSide when you think of a completely PvP oriented game. PS failed for a lot of reasons but a big one was the lack of anything other than PvP to keep people hooked.

[frosti]

I have a icon on my desktop that say's Warhammer Online - Age of Reckoning
Its Fun and they improved a lot over all the beta phases. The good thing is they pushed it a little behind to get a lot of stuff fixed.
Lets see how Beta Phase 3 gonna be.

[doomgamer93]

Call me once they get Warhammer 40,000 Online; Space Marines FTW

[Sivias]

Rayder is absolutely right. But i want to make my point again. Their elimination of this recent content has in no way any effect on the game's PvP aspect. It's not like they took out the cities and added dungeons. or didn't allow the other factions to run around in areas. It's still all RvR all the time. So, making an argument that the game is becoming more and more PvE simply is unjustifiable.
Yes, there is PvE in the game, but even the PvE is based around RvR. It's hard to explain, but once you get in game, you'll understand.

[n00b3h]

wooop got into the individual beta today! \o/

[Sivias]

Congrats!

You came in at a good time. They're just now giving us the lighting effects and new textures/sounds, making it a lot easier on the senses to play.

[Evilpeяsoи]

Originally Posted by Sivias

but even the PvE is based around RvR. It's hard to explain, but once you get in game, you'll understand.

Actually i do understand but please prove me wrong when i say that some of the PvE has started to sound like the instances in WoW.

And in regards to the only PvP stuff mentioned by someone up there ^^^^
The way i see it is this:
FFXI: almost pure PvE, there is incredibly minimal PvP in this game, i started mmorpgs on this and returned later
WoW: Balance between the 2 but still more heavily on PvE
WHO: Can you now see why I would want this game to be almost completely PvP? lol

FFXI has almost no PvP and since everyone is so god damn shitty at any sort of intelligent life attacking them i completely demolish in the small amount that is pvp.
WoW's biggest issue was me was the LACK of skill that was needed to PvP. I was EASILY and UNDISPUTIBLY one of if not the MOST skilled hunter on my server when i played and really anyone who played with me would vouche for me. But in a game based so heavily on gear (and some lack of balance mixed in), there would be little hope for me to win a 1v1 battle against, for example, an incredibly geared paladin (because the class took no skill and was way too overpowered). The fact that i knew my class well enough to be one of the best *skilled* players would allow me to commonly beat players who were better geared then me but in regards to the general population playing that game. Equipment wins the fight, not skill. And this was the #1 thing i HATED about WoW.

EDITagain: I'd also like to add because of the imbalance of a game, there was no rogue on the server or in our battlegroup that would ever be able to beat me in a 1v1 fight with any consistancy because of class balance, regardless of their gear. This was true with pretty much any rogue against any hunter with half a brain.

Now in regards to WHO, its basic mmorpg math here:
For the most part.....
PvE = gear
PvP = skill
more PvE = more gear
less PvP = less skill
therefor the more PvE there is and the less PvP there is, the less skill-based the game is.
I'm not saying that WHO is PvE based but every bit of added PvE cause the game to be more gear based which im sick of. FFXI is completely PvE based and in result of that everyone is a bunch of bumbling idiots when it comes to PvP. This could also be part of the reason I started playing FPS almost religiously and is HUGELY the reason i quit WoW a ~year ago.

/end rant

Originally Posted by n00b3h

wooop got into the individual beta today! o/

For the record, i hate you.



lol



/cry


EDIT: I'd also like to add, for the record, that alliance were little boys who would only fight when the numbers were 3:1 in their favor cause they were bad

[Sivias]

Originally Posted by Evilpeяsoи

WoW: Balance between the 2 but still more heavily on PvE

No... WoW had no PvP. It was pointless, it was dull, and relied entirely on PvE to be at all effective.
Alterac valley ended up being both sides charging the end caps of the other to see who could kill the final boss first. Battlegrounds relied entirely on gear and were dumb otherwise.

As for the class "imbalances", the class system as a rock paper scissors basis, and that's your problem with one on one fights.

War doesn't do this. You have archetypes, but a good tank could take out a bad caster and vice versa.

And the removal of content is not the addition of PvE content, not sure where you're getting your "they keep adding PvE content" cause this is not the case that i'm aware of. Maybe you could source your concerns?

[frosti]

For WoW and Alterac i have to say before the server merger for battelgrounds our alterac was a 95% win for Ally and they took most of the time like 3-4 hours of play.
I still think the best PvP and PvE solution was in Daoc hands down. And i hope for godsake warhammer online gonna be in the release like in daoc.

[Evilpeяsoи]

Originally Posted by frosti

I still think the best PvP and PvE solution was in Daoc hands down.

I never made it past looking at DaoC's graphics......lol

Originally Posted by Sivias

No... WoW had no PvP. It was pointless, it was dull, and relied entirely on PvE to be at all effective.
Alterac valley ended up being both sides charging the end caps of the other to see who could kill the final boss first. Battlegrounds relied entirely on gear and were dumb otherwise.

Debatable depending on class. Other then healing/tanking gear, the gear that could be obtained from PvP was definitly competitive with most PvE gear (save the last tier at the time).
And battleground being based entirely on gear, exactly my problem with the game.

Originally Posted by Sivias

As for the class "imbalances", the class system as a rock paper scissors basis, and that's your problem with one on one fights.

I havent played WoW in about 2 years and havent heard the rock paper scissors theory in probably 3 which is why it didnt come to mind and thats actually true lol. I think world of roguecraft said it best...

Warriors are rock.
Rogues are scissor.
Hunters, Paladins, Priests, Druids, Mages, Shamans are paper.
And Warlocks are Mushrooms.
Paper beats rock.
Scissors beat paper, but scissors ALSO happen to beat rock,
until rock hits 60 at which point rock becomes and unstoppable killing machine.
Then he also beats paper, and would beat scissors, but he can't find scissors, because scissors are invisible.
So in the end scissors beat paper and avoid rock.
And that is called balance.

Originally Posted by Sivias

And the removal of content is not the addition of PvE content, not sure where you're getting your "they keep adding PvE content" cause this is not the case that i'm aware of. Maybe you could source your concerns?

It hasnt actually been that there seems like theres a lot of PvE content being added or there in the first place. Like i said in my last post, its just my own developed neurotic hatred for PvE lol. Just thinking of a "tanking" class makes me wanna stab someone in the face .